My African Aesthetic
This podcast is part of My African Aesthetic.
On this Podcast, we shed light on the central and important roles Africans themselves have had, have and will have in creating sustainable neighborhoods and communities around the globe.
Our work centers African Aesthetics, African design philosophy and placemaking. We do this through dialogue, project work, research, documentation and education.
This podcast features thoughtful, constructive and reflective conversations with architects, artists, curators, designers, creatives, activists, innovators, community leaders and African design enthusiasts.
We hope this podcast helps you expand and deepen your knowledge on African aesthetics, African design philosophy and placemaking and its role in creating inclusive and sustainable communities in Africa and beyond.
https://www.myafricanaesthetic.com/
My African Aesthetic
5.1. Don Lawrence: Jamaica. New York. Norway
Don Lawrence shares his transformative journey as an architect, connecting his roots in Jamaica to his experiences in New York and Norway. His family influences and diverse geopolitical experiences shape not only his design approach but also embody the importance of cultural heritage and community in creating meaningful and sustainable spaces.
Our discussions highlight the interplay of culture, education, and identity in shaping one's life and design philosophy. We also focus on the significance of sense of place and the African aesthetic in design. Finally, Don discusses an exciting project in Bali, where he and his team combine local craftsmanship with sustainable methods—highlighting the significance of recognizing traditional techniques, drawing lessons from traditional African building techniques and aesthetics. This blend represents a holistic approach to architecture that seeks to honor the materials, the environment, and the individuals who inhabit these spaces.
Through Don Lawrence's reflective narrative, we grasp essential lessons about identity, resilience, and the quest for innovative and sustainable design practices. His story serves as a reminder of the profound influence of cultural roots and personal experiences in creating architectural spaces that resonate deeply with the communities they serve.
Recorded: 03.08.2024
https://www.don-lawrence.com/
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Website: https://www.myafricanaesthetic.com/
Welcome to my African Aesthetic. On this podcast, we shed light on the central and important roles Africans themselves have had, have and will have in creating sustainable neighbourhoods and communities in Africa and around the globe, african design philosophy and African placemaking. We do this through dialogue, project work, research, documentation and education. This podcast features thoughtful, constructive and reflective conversations with architects, artists, curators, designers, creatives, activists, innovators, community leaders and African design enthusiasts. I hope this podcast helps you expand and deepen your knowledge on African aesthetics, african design philosophy and placemaking, and its role in creating inclusive and sustainable communities in Africa and beyond. Thank you for tuning in in Africa and beyond.
Speaker 2:Thank you for tuning in. Thank you again for tuning in. We are on season five, which is almost unbelievable to think, but very exciting to have Don Lawrence helping to kick us off this season. We're going to learn a little bit more about his journey family education all the way to professional practice, getting into philosophy and his approach to what he does and why he does it. So, don, thank you so much for honoring this invitation to be on my African Aesthetic season five.
Speaker 3:It's my pleasure.
Speaker 2:Awesome. So just to get us started, we just like to pick it, you know, a few, a few years not not too many years back. But if you could just take us back to your um formative years, those early years growing up in Jamaica, and just do your best to see, if you could paint us a picture of the sights, the sounds, the smells, the things, things you hold dear to your heart, that you remember about your childhood.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's so many impressions I'm not quite sure where to start. Maybe I'll do it a little bit chronological, because my childhood and my experience of Jamaica kind of is split in two, like when I. The first place that I lived is where I was born. It wasn't quite a kind of like a typical residential area, like middle class Jamaica, it's like in the 1970s, you know, it was just like a two family house lawn in front. You know, I had a dog.
Speaker 3:You know, what perhaps was not typical for me is that I had five mothers and I had these five wonderful women that basically pampered me. So I was very privileged in that way. It was my grandmother and all of these women basically had all these different. They satisfied certain needs that I had and they had different roles in rearing me, like everybody's grandma, you know, like you get unconditional love there, right, and my mom was the provider, she was the breadwinner, the disciplinarian, and I had three aunts and they kind of supplemented, you know, like you know, emotionally and just in many different ways, you know.
Speaker 3:So I was quite privileged in that sense and then at some point I don't know what year it was, maybe I was five or seven I moved to kind of a developing area. It was kind of like this new initiative that was supported by the Cuban government Castro was kind of implementing to help Jamaica to build up its middle class and to kind of have everyone own their own home, like back in that other house we rented. And so my mother and my father, with my father's help, they took part in that initiative and they got a house.
Speaker 3:And that was one of my earliest impressions of architecture because it was a house that was built from ground up and I saw, you know, the foundation being built I was.
Speaker 3:You know the impressions of the, you know the construction crew. You know they had these machines, the smell of the concrete and the asphalt and everything kind of like being put together and this whole thing kind of raising up from the ground. I still quite remember clearly, you know these cinder blocks and the steel rebars sticking up out of the box and it's just coming up and the whole area was a kind of a construction site. And my mom was the first architect in the family because she was like, you know, there was limited what you could do in terms of the design of it and she was kind of instrumental and she had like very specific ways of wanting things to be done and how the facade should be treated and so forth, and yeah, so that was kind of like and that area was called Nannyville and any Jamaican listening to this will know what Nannyville is, because Nannyville is one of the most infamous areas in Kingston, it.
Speaker 3:you know. After this initiative started, basically what happened was that the whole it kind of fell apart because of geopolitical forces. What happened is, you know, nantiville and most a lot of places in Kingston and throughout Jamaica became kind of a proxy civil war. For what was going on in the Cold War. Right, jamaica was being, you know, the current prime minister was being supported by the Soviet Union through Castro, and then the Americans were supporting the opposition. And, without getting too political, what happened is that that era kind of fell into kind of degradating. That initiative just stopped and a different kind of people moved in. It wasn't the people that was intended to be the middle class, and so it was an area that was known for a lot of political warfare. So it was an area that was known for a lot of political warfare. There were guns being supplied to a lot of the. There were gangs in there that were getting guns to fight political wars. So that was kind of the backdrop of my kind of last years in Jamaica, most of the years in Jamaica, you know, like from the from the late 70s to to 1989, when I left, finally.
Speaker 3:But yeah, but me as a kid, I think I had really two kind of main things that kind of defined, defined me in terms of character and and that was I was this curious, like annoyingly curious kid, like I annoyed the hell out of my poor mother, you know. I mean, the thing is I just wanted to know how everything worked and what was behind everything. Like you know, I would just ask how does that work? And she gave me an explanation. But how does that and how does that work? And and she gave me an explanation. But but how does that and how does that work? Until at some point she's like, okay, don't stop enough. So so that was that was me, what, what?
Speaker 3:I was, this quiet, skinny kid, you know I, I was, you know I was, you know I was asking about do I run around just like barefooted? I was running around barefoot just in my own Really skinny kids. I used to be teased because I was so skinny, but but I mean, I was kind of like this average kid in class. I wasn't like super smart or anything. This average kid in class, I wasn't like super smart or anything, but what kind of set me apart from everything was that I was really good at art. I mean, my visual senses were highly developed beyond my years and at some point, you know, I just went around and drawing everything and I got a lot of positive attention for it for it.
Speaker 3:You know, I used to go to my mom's workplace and she worked at a print tree and I would go in the back and it's filled with papers and the smell of the ink and the press and it was like a kid in a candy store, you know, going there and I would just take paper and I start drawing the, the. You know the guys working in the press and they would, they would take these drawings and pin it up behind their workplace, you know, by by their, their um desks. So every time I go there I would see my drawings, you know, and and it and it, it made an impression. You know that they were. They would keep it there and so, but, um, but, yeah, but, but, but, but. Those, those two things are kind of like my two main kind of characteristic and those are kind of first impressions that I can think of when I think back to my childhood.
Speaker 2:That's really wonderful and I just love that you had an opportunity to have those sort of like early uh interests in, whether it's in art, in architecture, in making sort of be um stewarded by the matriarchs in your family. It seems like for the most part, even though sometimes curious and annoying um, you were also celebrated and going to your mom's workplace. I think that's amazing. I'm curious to hear how that transitions into the classroom environment. So there is the learning and your interest in architecture and even design that's happening outside the structure of a classroom. So it's happening organically, just by virtual, where you're moving to, um, the construction of nannyville, all that um, the experience with your mom and her work. But now if you could transition into school, those early formative years of school, what was that like? And maybe even getting into how that experience of learning in Jamaica either influenced your interest in design and architecture further or impacted it in whatever way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, you know, jamaica I mean it's obviously a former British colony and the whole kind of educational apparatus that was there was based on this kind of British kind of system of education and mindset and, for all its positives and negatives, for best and for worst, but it's quite, at least in the yeah, I would say it's a quite conservative society. Conservative society and you know, teachers were kind of like almost gods in Jamaica. You know, like everyone wanted their kids to be a teacher or a police or a doctor, and so you grew up, you know, in the academic environment the teachers were like these revered beings environment, the teachers were like these revered beings. Um, me, I, I, you know, my my thing, like you know, it was drawing and and visual and, like I mentioned, I was this average kid, average students in my academic um, at least in the primary years, and what, what kind of got me excited about school is if I could latch my enthusiasm for like the visual, for visual things, to my academics, like if I had a term paper to write and I could illustrate things, then it would make the subject more interesting for me. It would create this excitement where I want to dig deeper and learn more about it, right, because I was drawing it.
Speaker 3:And then once I went over to high school, I kind of like had a. Really I learned about physics, right, and that kind of met my thirst for knowledge, this curiosity. It was just like a love at first sight kind of experience, right. So there it was like oh, then here's the answers to all the questions that I was not in my appearance with, and I just went in deep, like you know, like super deep.
Speaker 3:The school that I went to was called Excelsior High School, but it wasn't just a high school, it was a huge educational complex. It was right next to Nannyville, where I was growing up, so I would just walk over to school every morning, but it had a college as well, a community college, and it had a library and I used to go over there into the college library, got college books on physics while I was in high school and I was reading them after school. And even more I went, you know, I snuck into the other section's physics class and was just like you know, and every day I would just go. I took my physics class I don't know how many times per week there was and then I went into my other, the other physics class.
Speaker 4:The secret to physics.
Speaker 3:Until there was a drum time, you know, and you know I was sitting in the back trying to be quiet and not be too visible. And then, you know, suddenly there was a surprise quiz and then I got this you know quiz and I how am I going to explain to this teacher that I'm not in his class? And all the other kids were like John Barrett is not in his class, or a guy who's like. You know, he was so positive he's like who in the world would do?
Speaker 2:such a thing, wow. Oh, my God.
Speaker 3:But what I did I was just I mean, I still remember, like all the different laws and academic principles and Newton's laws of motion, but that is what kind of transitioned me into architecture, because I combined this love of physics and my visual senses, you know, and that was like the perfect marriage. And I think I was 12 or 13, somewhere there when I came up on architecture. I think that we had to choose which direction we're going to go in and I spoke to a guidance counselor and he said you know, you should maybe consider architecture. So that's how I went into it. And they had also a technical drawing program and I just remember seeing all the cool older guys. They were like walking around with the T-square and the roll of paper around it. I want to be like them, so yeah. So that kind of really sealed it for me and ever since then I just wanted to be an architect. So yeah.
Speaker 4:So, in all this, how did your parents and the people around you, your family, react to this choice?
Speaker 3:Yeah, my mom was the you know I was lucky to have. My mom was my biggest cheerleader and, um, she, she didn't quite understand it, um, but she knew I had this talent and everyone around her was saying you know, you know, I go to work, and everyone drawing, everybody is even way, way younger and and everyone, like you know her, her name is jacqueline's, like what they call her Joy. You're like Joy, your son has a talent. You have to. You can't ignore this, and so she would.
Speaker 3:She had a huge financial burden, you know, to, I mean, she was the breadwinner but she managed. She saw that and she made an extreme effort to kind of nurture that. And to, I mean, I remember she sent me to. You know, the Jamaica School of Art had a kind of a program for like a high school, not high school but like an after school program, and she sent me to that, you know, and I knew she didn't have a lot to do it but she did, and so I used to go there. It was like a school for, like you know, upper middle class kids who had, you know, extra money and they would just send their kids there. But I took it very seriously, you know, and so she nurtured that. And even after we moved to New York she made like an extreme effort, given that she didn't have all that means, to make sure that I had what I needed to go further and to kind of nurture that talent that I had.
Speaker 4:So why did you move to New York?
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, yeah, because coming back to this political or geopolitical question, you know, living in Nantiville it was notorious, it was dangerous, sometimes there were firefights. You know, you're just, you know, in the 1980s you're watching Dynasty or Falcon Crest or one of these TV shows and suddenly there is like gunfire, there's a political gang war happening and everyone you know had to just get flat on the ground Grandma, from grandma to the smallest kids. And what happened also is that you know, if there is a bank robbery or kind of a high crime that happened in Kingston, the police would just drive in and they would see a young man and they just thought, okay, he looks guilty, and they would just shoot him and try to figure out later on if he did it or not. And that was just the norms in Nantaville. So we just took off to New York. It was getting a little bit too dangerous, so we took off to New York and that's also kind of an interesting kind of cultural transition. It was a huge culture shock, you know, transitioning from Jamaica to New York.
Speaker 4:Could you throw some light on that? I'm curious about this because these are circumstances, both what you describe in Jamaica about being a young black man in a context with a lot of violence or a reputation. We're in Norway and there are areas in Oslo and in the other major cities where especially young adults or young boys of color, they're the suspect automatically.
Speaker 4:And they tire of it, and I feel like I'm sure there are many that can relate with that. We have young people that have ambition and the context from which they have come from, whether it's Africa or the Caribbean or wherever, I think, when they move to Europe or the US, I think it's very easy to put them in stereotypes and these individual stories of like you know what, when Don and his family were in Jamaica, there wasn't less ambition there. You know they didn't import, you know like, by allowing certain people into a country because they have war, for different reasons. They don't always bring with them all the crime and all the stereotypes.
Speaker 4:So the reason I would like for us to dwell on this is because this affects excellence. It affects excellence and the quest for excellence and self-confidence in our young black men, but also generally people of colour. So, I wonder how you managed to go about both, especially that transition at that age from one context to another, and what challenges, how did you just generally maybe two highlights for me that could probably help this dilemma that you know young people are going through.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, that really hits the point because and there's two stories here in terms of culture and, more specifically, black culture culture and more specifically Black culture, like in Jamaica, right, it's a society of Black people, mostly Black people, or Black and brown people, and there you have the role models right For me. I saw architects that were Black in Jamaica, doctors, lawyers, criminals, everybody was black or brown, and so you feel that you can go anywhere and do anything. And then when I moved to New York, I moved into a kind of a Black neighborhood and I see how my brothers not literal brothers, but my brothers and sisters in my Black and Brown brothers and sisters in New York, they didn't have that, they didn't have that range of role models to think that, you know, I could go there or there or anywhere. It was very limited, and not only the role model but also the geography. I mean there are people that live in what I call a ghetto, that they just live in all their lives, right? I mean I don't know if you've seen that movie, gangs of New York, martin Scorsese. It was a period piece set back in the 1800s. But you see that New York is kind of like it's called a melting pot, but it's not really melted Because it's a place where you have Italian neighborhood, black neighborhood, jewish neighborhood, and they're all right next to each other and sometimes this spills into kind of race war or you know.
Speaker 3:And so I ended up in Far Rockaway, which was it was a neighborhood that was, it was a Jewish neighborhood before for very rich Jewish, like it was. You had these big kind of brownstone houses or masonry houses and they used to be residents of, like highly prominent, uh, jewish people and, um it, it was a kind of an area that was being gentrified. It was mostly, um, like 90 percent gentrified. Um, already, like it was a black and brown area and there was like a few holdouts still there, but the high school still had Jewish teachers, right, so all the teachers were Jewish, or 90% of them, I think. There were like two or three Black teachers I can remember, and basically 99.90% of the student body were Black or brown. Basically 99.9% of the student body were Black or brown and it set the stage for a kind of a really interesting almost from an anthropological point of view.
Speaker 3:Me coming from Jamaica and seeing that and seeing, you know, coming from a society that was very conservative, had extreme reverence for education, for civil society. And then, you know, coming to this environment, like I remember very clearly my first day of school in New York, where the teacher was kind of giving a roll call and saying, you know, calling the name and she couldn't pronounce this girl's name, and and this girl, just just, she just let out a filthy triad on this. You know, like all these curse words coming out and and I was shocked, my mouth opened because I know, like, you know, like in Jamaica, you don't say that.
Speaker 2:Don't do that to a teacher.
Speaker 3:Right, my jaw fell open. I was like, okay, now I'm going to see someone expelled from school on my first day. Wow, this is action. What made my jaw fell from like you know, open, know, open to like, falling all the way to the floor, was how the teacher responded, because she just like, oh, I'm sorry and I'm like what? Okay, she still has teeth in her mouth, but you know what? Um, so, so, but, but, but that was basically the. It set the tone for my experience.
Speaker 3:I went to to Far Rockaway High School for two years and, and that that basically set the tone. Um, because it was just like it was a dangerous place to be. Kids were bringing guns into the school, like in Jamaica, right, I lived in Nantaville and that was dangerous, but in the school it was a safe space and in some ways, coming to New York, you're thinking the American dream, but it ain't no American dream, right, because it was in some ways jumping from the fire, from the fire pan, into the fire. You know, this school wasn't a safe place, but it wasn't like night and day. It was quite curious, like the differences, right, like in Jamaica, you know the teachers, they, you know, like you become a math teacher because you're good at math and then you become a teacher and you develop a kind of a relationship with the student and they love the students, right, and they want the best for them and they give all they can.
Speaker 3:I think in the States what I noticed was that that you know, these teachers became teachers because they it's not just that they're good at math, they, they went to school and they had an education about how to teach students, like they had an education in education, and so they went kind of above and beyond. They. They did like all these crazy antics like if you raise your hand then you're going to get one percentage point for asking a question in class, and it was like engagement and it was like what is this? Yeah, but but I played along and I and I thought it was quite interesting. Um, it was kind of remedial, but it was. I understand.
Speaker 3:They presented the material in a way that you understand. They tried to present it in a way that you understand it. They were reaching out. They were quite inventive to put the work in a way that you can understand it, which I didn't think I didn't find that in Jamaica. It was just like here's math figure it out, you know like, but it was just two different ways of doing things. But it was just like one of those interesting dynamics or things that I noticed culturally differently. But there was a lot of disciplinary problem. It was like math In Jamaica you had like one or two students that had, you know, they had a problem at home and it needs to be dealt with. And here it was like in New York, it was just like the majority had a problem and the ones who didn't have a problem was the, the exception. Um, so I came from being like an average kid in jamaica to like top a student in okay, you know um, but, but.
Speaker 3:But it was just like, uh, it was shocking and it was impoverished. But you know, later on, in later years and in retrospect, I realized it was just part of a systematic oppression that was there. Where, you know, I was privileged in that I came from an area, a country where I had role models. I saw a healthy black and brown society. I knew that it existed and I knew that there is a place in society for me if I want it. And they didn't have that. I was just frustrated with them and just like, why are they like that the whole time? And there was kind of like this thing in the Caribbean community where they're like you know, these American kids, they're wayward, or you know, like they're ambitionless. But it's not the case. I don't disparage them, I just understand that it's a different. They're just not as privileged as I was or as we are to have that, that kind of environment.
Speaker 2:I think that that's really good, that reminder that, um, you know, just if the black experience is not a monolith and that, and I love that you pointing out the privilege that that we have, those of us who've had the chance to grow up in a culture and environment where I would seen uh, you said that spectrum. We know what success looks like, but we also want to see what struggle looks like, and there's something about seeing it all, knowing that education, whereas it could be a struggle for many, is attainable and there's an expectation. And then coming to a context where, unfortunately, it's the case for several communities of color in the US, where it's the circumstances is a lot of systemic issues that are at the root of what we see on the surface, what we see in schools, where we see disinvestment in the school system and that it's's not like a easy fix, like, oh, let's just fix discipline or let's just fix that is one part, but because of how systemic it is if there's an ecosystem of part things that are happening socially, emotionally, the found even just like foundation, having an ancestry, having a. You know, a lot of us are privileged to have a heritage, you know. You know who your people are. You know where they come from. There's something about those things that you can't measure them in in monetary value but are so critical to to what could make for a whole person.
Speaker 2:You know, I want us to um, get to your. You know bachelors and your time at you know cooper union and all that, but maybe like one quick step before that in your education, especially because you talked about this transition. There's like a culture shock that comes with experiencing a classroom in jamaica versus or this classroom environment in the us and even just how teaching is different. I'm wondering if there's certain things about how how you were taught in the? U or how learning happened that you could pinpoint in retrospect that added to this passion for architecture and design. Are there things where it's you know? You talked about those early characteristics of being curious and inquisitive and loving drawing. Are there any things that were added in that like American classroom experience that you're kind of like, wow, yeah, that opened my mind too.
Speaker 3:Yeah you know, what is really interesting is that, you know, those two years that I spent at Far Rockaway High School, I had to put all of that on pause because they didn't have an arts program. I mean the art, I mean you didn't have that creative outlet and that was so, so, so needed and so necessary, especially in an environment like that.
Speaker 2:And they did have an arts program there.
Speaker 3:What happened was one day I was in my homeroom in it is back in Far Rockaway High School and they had no. Even before that. They had a college fair right and in the basement we had a cafeteria. The whole entire basement of the school was a huge cafeteria hall and they had a college fair, huge cafeteria hall and they had a college fair and I remember going there and they had all these different. You know colleges being represented and you know basically what a lot of colleges do to attract students and that's like a whole other aspect of American education system where the college is for profit and so forth. But basically the way to attract students is that you know they have a good basketball program and if you have a good basketball program then you're going to attract more students. So you're choosing college by what basketball program they have, not because you're playing, but because you want to be on the school that has the winning basketball team so that you can be a super College sports, college athletics in the US.
Speaker 3:Right, right, it's bizarre, right so, but anyway. So I went there, and so you had St John's and Syracuse and they had this colors and the best logos and everything, and everyone was crowded around those booths. And then I saw this one guy, a black guy, his name is Mitchell Thompson. He was representing the Cooper Union and he was just there alone and I just was thinking I want to study architecture. I went to Syracuse Do you have an architecture program? Yeah, okay, I took a leaflet from them, and then how much does it cost? And you know, and then I went to Cooper Union and it was like this doesn't look interesting. It's like I still remember to this day, you know. It was like their brochure was this brown book it had? It was like, you know, like it came from the 1850s. They had this guy that looked like an old US president, but it was the founder of the school, peter Kupfer. Looked like a coin, not really exciting. And so I was like, okay, so do you have an architecture program? Yes, of course we do. Okay, and how much does it cost? It's free. What it's free? How is that possible? I'm like, okay, it has an architecture program and it's free, how is that possible? I'm like, okay, it has an architecture program and it's free. I'm like, okay, now you're talking.
Speaker 3:So I took the brochure and I just like you know like how I got, like I latched on to this physics thing. I just like started reading. There was no internet at the time, but I just like read through all of these things and I looked at all the people who are the professors there and like every one of them went to Harvard or something and I'm like Harvard. You know, my grandfather went to Harvard. So, yeah, my mother always said you should go to Harvard. Maybe I should. I'm like, okay, this is the place for me. And I had that book and I like this brochure. And I'm like, okay, this is the school that I'm going to. And I kind of okay, I had that in the back of my mind.
Speaker 3:And then one day in my homeroom I heard over the speaker that they have this free arts program for high school kids. You can come in every Saturday and you know it has program for high school kids in art, architecture, in art and architecture. If you want to join it, just go to the guidance counselor's office and sign up. So immediately after I had a chance. I ran down there and like I want to sign up, give me the all the information. And I'm like, yes, I found it.
Speaker 3:So I ran home and I'm like mom, I'm going to the Saturday program. And she's like, no, you're not. And I'm like what? It's too dangerous. How are you going to get there? You're going to take the train in the subway to Manhattan and go there. No, it's too dangerous. I just just sunk, you know so. So I mean, and she, it's, it's reasonable. I mean, it was a new york at that time. It was a dangerous place and people got mugged and and, um, crazy things happened. But I wasn't gonna let that stop me. But you know the the the great thing about having five mothers is that if one says no, he's going down the list.
Speaker 3:He's going down the list. So I learned negotiation very early. So I went to my aunt Jen and she was, like you know, the one that is kind of like the adventurous one in the family, and I went over and I pleaded my case to Aunt Jen and she was like, of course you're going to go. And she went to, don't worry, I'll talk to your mom. And then so she convinced my mom and then I got to go. And so that's how I that was my arts program in high school was going to Cooper Union every Saturday to have a course in architecture.
Speaker 3:But kind of, if I may, I can paint a picture of like the first time I went to that program, like coming from Farraquay High School. It's like impoverished, you know no arts program whatsoever. And then you go to Saturday program in the Cooper Union and you know you go into this brown building and you go into this round elevator and you go to Saturday program in the Cooper Union and you know you go into this brown building and you go into this round elevator and you go up and then the the door opens and then you see all these kids in this big room and they had sketch papers and cardboards and knives and, and, you know, to make models and stuff. It was just just like. It was like a kid in a candy store, it was just like night and day.
Speaker 3:So this program was led by, it was taught by architecture students current architecture students that was at the school and like three, four of them would teach, you know, to inner city high school kids um introduction to art and architecture. So in the morning we used to have um figure drawing. You know, we'd have a live model and, um, we, we do figure drawings and in the, in the second half of the day, we built models and and and it just tried to, you know to to challenge your visual perceptions, like you would get things like how would you build a house on the moon? Because everybody wanted to build like, oh, and, in architecture I'm going to build a house with, you know, with a roof like that, and you know, but you just, they try to challenge your imagination and just try to let you think outside the box. So I later became one of those teachers when I got into Cooper, um, but that that was just like a godsend, that program, um, and and it just it, it, it gave me um an outlet for my creative thirst and.
Speaker 3:I feel indebted to that program and there are other programs like that around and I always think that it's really just a little you know, in some ways, when you have situations like that, you know, like an education system that is systematically oppressed, like it was in New York at that time, programs like those exist and it's just even a challenge to know that they exist and to even convince the kids to get out and do it. But I'm not the only one. I mean, a lot of kids go through programs like that and it just underscores the importance of having you know, these programs, these initiatives that try to right some of these wrongs that exist in our society.
Speaker 4:We met at the Oslo School of Architecture. Yeah, how did you end up in Norway? Tell us about your transition into professional practice in Norway.
Speaker 3:So I mean maybe I can tell you a little bit first about my experience as a student, because it's interesting to talk about the difference in Cooper Union and in the architecture school. So I mean I got into Cooper and I also tell you a little bit about the Cooper as well, because that's also an interesting story. I applied to Cooper the first time and I didn't get in Because in that Saturday program I asked one of the tutors what's my chances of getting in? And he said it's not easy. So it was like winning the lottery, and so he's like your chances are very slim. So then I applied to the Cooper Union, applied, you know, to the Cooper Union, and then you know, at the end you know some of my colleagues, my classmates in the Saturday program I saw they got in and I was like really Okay then, if they could do it, I could do it too. So the second time I applied I knew I was going to get in. I applied like I was going to get in and I just remember the day.
Speaker 3:There's very few moments in one's life where you can kind of pinpoint that pivotal moment where you know your life is going to change forever. And I remembered when the envelope from the Cooper Union came, you know, I was so confident that I got in. I just saw the envelope out of the mailbox and I started screaming for like 10 minutes and everyone came. What's happening to you? What happened to you? Like the Cooper Union. I got in. I got in and they were like did you open the union? I got in. I got in and they were like did you open the envelope? I'm like no, but I but I knew because you know the rejection letter I got the previous year.
Speaker 3:It was just like a regular size envelope and then this was different I saw this big envelope, I was like I was screaming until I was like out of breath on the floor and then and then I'm like okay, then open it. So I open it and I pulled out the first letter and it's like welcome to the. And I started screaming for 10 minutes.
Speaker 4:Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker 3:But, but, but. But I got it and that was, like you know, um challenge one, because because now, remember, I'm an illegal alien, um, I shouldn't be in the in the united states.
Speaker 2:So I was like, okay, it's like it's like that physics class in jamaica that you are not supposed to be exactly.
Speaker 3:I'm like, how am I gonna tell them? So so I'm waiting now, like what's gonna happen? So then I got uh a little email and a mail, you know, said, uh, please fill out your social security number. And I and I'm like, okay. So I went into the office of admissions and and that same guy, michelle Thompson, that that lone brown guy that was in the in the cafeteria, he, I went into his office and I was like I don't have a social security number. And he's like, okay, no worries, we'll fix it.
Speaker 3:And I'm like, okay, the thing is that the Cooper Union was founded by this guy, peter Cooper, who was he himself was an immigrant in the 1850s, somewhere there 16, I don't know and he was a son of immigrants. Immigrants came to New York very poor and he, you know, he lived the American dream and he became a millionaire or a billionaire by those day standards. And he made the school with the charter that it should be free like the air and the wind, and it was made for the sons and daughters of immigrants. And that's how the Cooper Union was founded and it just over the years, transitioned into like a world-class academy. But I never asked them about it why, but I knew that, like my mom said to me that if I didn't get in she wouldn't be able to send me to college because there was no financial aid, there's no way I could have afforded college if I didn't get in to the Cooper Union. So it was like it was literally a life changing event and that just changed the whole entire course of my life, changing event and that just changed the whole entire course of my life. And but the other thing that I learned that was quite interesting was that the year that year they didn't choose 35 or 25 students. They choose, they chose I think it was like 10 and I think they accepted like two or three transfers. So they were making this super class. So I don't know, I mean, okay, fine, I applied, like I knew I was going to get in, but it was extreme that I got into the school at that particular time. It was an experiment and it only happened that time.
Speaker 3:But it was a squeaky white school. The interior was white, it was just white on many levels. All the teachers were white, the students were white, most of I mean it was diverse, in that it was made up maybe, let's say, 50% of Americans and 50% Europeans because they took in Europeans from yeah, a lot. It was a world-renowned school and people all over the, you know, europe and the United States applied so, but I was one of the few and slowly they started to get in more black and brown people in there. They started to get in more black and brown people in there, but it was a tough program and not many made it all the way to the end.
Speaker 3:A lot of the teachers that we had there were world-renowned architects, like I had Ricardo Scofidio from Diller Sco dealer scoffidio, for example, and I didn't know who he was until, like you know, you have to look in the book or what did they do? You know you're like, okay, um, but it was just like one superstar architect after another for every year and, um, we this? There's a specific way to educate an architect and you know if you fit that program, great. If you don't, then you get out Somehow. It felt a little bit culty, like everyone was saying I mean, he was a master educator, he was the real deal.
Speaker 3:The pedagogy is that you should look inward, find yourself, find what's in you and and bring that out, which is what I totally agree with and I think in. In my view, that's the way you should. Um, young people and, and, and and. That was how the program was built around. But but I was a young, uh, perhaps not the smartest at this time. I was like I'm going to be rebellious. I'm not, I don't want to look inside myself, I want to design a building, I want to be an architect.
Speaker 3:So I remember my thesis year. You know, I, I, I, I decided I'm going to do a scientific research institution, oceanographic research institute, and Haydock was on his last. You know he was, I was one of his last, you know our group was one of his last students and he, you know one of the teachers, like, well, you know, I told John Haydock that you were doing a research institute for science and he was very disappointed. I'm like, okay, well, that's so good, but I did it. And he came, you know, he came at the final review and he looked at what I did and he was so disappointed. But you know, the year before that I did a project that that he really he came in the fourth year I did this project that he really loved. I mean, he came to to the, to the final review, and in the middle of me presenting, he said this this is a great work. And he, he took the model and he put it outside his office for half a year right under the School of Architecture, which was a super privilege, and it was just there and it kind of freaked me out. You know, that was like the greatest honor you could have, but yeah, but like when he saw what I did for for my thesis, he was like, yeah, but you were the kid that did that and he pointed to the empty space underneath the school of the architecture building. Um, you know, um, but.
Speaker 3:But it probably wasn't one of my, my more shining moments, but but it was interesting. But the point I was trying to make is that it was about. It was a pedagogy built around looking inwards and finding yourself. And then my transition. Then, you know, I finished school, it was a professional degree, and I worked for some years. I met an Norwegian woman and we got together and we went to Norway, and so the easiest way to get into Norway and this was her brainchild is like why don't you just go to graduate school and you'll network? It would be a fine introduction and transition into Norway. So then I thought, okay, I will go to the Oslo Architecture School and so. So it was interesting. It wasn't such a stark shock like my transition from Jamaica to New York, but it was. It was somewhat of a culture shock in that just the kind of ways that Norway is different from the rest of the world, you know it like.
Speaker 3:I remember my first day of class. I went into it was a Ola Fjell was my professor, and I came in, I sat down and he just smiled, hi, hello. And then, you know, the class was supposed to start at nine o'clock and you know, got in there like at uh, 8, 45 and just, you know, finding my place, saying hello, chit-chatting to the other students, and he just sat there at the teacher's desk, smiling, saying hello, minute, until he's like 8.59, 49, 48, no 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And he stood up, welcome in, you know, like welcome. So he was like precise on time and that was just like wow, because there's like this thing called Jamaica time, right when you know, in Jamaica.
Speaker 3:It's like I'd say, meet at nine o'clock, it's like plus or minus nine somewhere there, you know. But this was like a kind of a shock with the Norwegian culture that they were so precise they I mean in architecture school also, I think not just in New York but around the world. It was like a thing where you know you develop a kind of a camaraderie around working at night and you say how little sleep you have. They were kind of exchange students from the rest of Europe, so we had speaking English in common, but the Norwegian students they would start at eight and they would finish at four or five and they go home yes right.
Speaker 3:Um, and it's not that they were like you know, I mean my thing or we're brought up to think that you give it all and you, you, you, you have this kind of like, uh, you create this drama and hysteria. You know, pushing yourself to the limit. If you, if you, if you didn't work until the last minute, then you didn't give it your all right. And and in norway you work from nine to five, even in architecture school, and they did equally. They didn't have worse projects than anybody else.
Speaker 4:Sorry.
Speaker 3:I'm disimpassioned, but that was another, you know, kind of culture shock. But I'd say kind of like the difference between going to school in, you know, between Cooper Union and the AHU, the architecture school in Oslo was that you know, like we're at Cooper, you had a specific pedagogy that said this is how you educate an architect. At the architecture school in Oslo it was. It was almost like a buffet of different studios where you get a little bit of the Bartlett, you know. You get some teachers from the Bartlett in London coming to teach a studio. You have a group from Harvard teaching here. You have Sphere of Fins, you know unit that he was teaching. You have some and and some and there is no like common thread throughout. So you're kind of free to mix and match and choose however you want. So that was also kind of very interesting difference. But I mean it's different.
Speaker 3:I don't say one is better or worse than the other difference, but I mean it's different. I don't say one is better or worse than the other, but I quite, you know, even though I was so rebellious at Cooper about this idea of looking inward, it wasn't until I moved to Aarhu that I realized how important that was, because I think at Aarhus and in Norway in general, people tend to see themselves that, or maybe I say we see ourselves in the North. I'm much as Norwegian as you are, so I would say we, when we talk about Norwegian. I'm a Norwegian citizen. So I think we in Norway tend to think of ourselves as being on the edge of the rest of the world and the edge of Europe in the far north, and we are always looking southward. We are like looking at what everybody else in the world is doing and like at Cooper.
Speaker 3:You know, we felt like we were in the center and I even remember where we had, like these censors used to come to give accreditation or take it away and they were just like looking at us and they had a meeting and they were like I remember one of the censors saying, yeah, you know, you guys are one of those edge schools, and Peter Eisenman was a professor at the time. He was like no, no, no, we are not one of the edge schools, we are in the center. You guys are on the edge.
Speaker 4:Oh, my God.
Speaker 3:But people were looking in to see what we were doing and I felt like in Aahu, you know, we were looking out and at the end of the year, end of the year show, you know, if the student worked, you can see the influences of what was going on in the rest of the world. And I said, okay, that looks like a little Bjarke Ingels building there, like Bjarke Ingels could have done that. Oh, OMA could have done that. Oh, you know. But I think at Cooper the work that came out was basically a reflection of what was inside these students. You know there's a Cooper standard that is not written. It has to have a certain look, a certain way. But it had a certain look, a certain way but it had a certain personal authenticity to it.
Speaker 3:that I think is quite pleasant, and I'm glad I went to those two academies and experienced those two different things, because I appreciate each the other a little bit better just by experiencing the differences.
Speaker 2:I'm so curious to see if there's a thread that connects us from these somewhat diverse philosophies and ways of learning at Cooper and then at the Oslo School that you have found that you've, because I find it interesting that you said learning at Cooper and then at the Oslo School that you have found that you've. Because I find it interesting that you said while at Cooper you were rebellious and resisted the notion of looking inward, but you found it much later, while you were also and probably that also has to do with just time and, like growth, you know that you are probably more ready to look inwards, and so I'm curious how those sort of like approaches come together to start to form your philosophy and your approach to the work you do today. How did that shape your practice today? So maybe you can even tell us a little bit about how that helped you know, tie into your philosophy and core values.
Speaker 3:In looking inwards. You know it's hard. I think if one of my disadvantages or weaknesses, I think, is that I'm very un-self-aware I can speak about what people say about me or when they describe me. But like I feel I've always had this kind of interest in nature both, even though you know in in in Jamaica, where I grew up, there was not a lot of nature, it wasn't, like you know, super planned to have like green vegetation, like parks and so forth, and in New York it wasn't, it wasn't much nature at all. But maybe that created kind of this yearning for nature. And coming to Oslo even though I don't have this tradition so much of going to the cabin like most Norwegians but I felt I yearned this connection to nature and I thought about that a lot in my work and in all the work that I do, whether my wife is an artist and we work together, but she's doing drawings and paintings, and when we work together we kind of meet somewhere halfway in between, because we do performance art, we do set design, we do installations, and so even in that space where we meet, I see that red thread that connects all the work is that we're always looking at ways to put the user to see nature in a new way or just to see nature itself. So you're seeing something in nature and in architecture. It might be that we frame a view of nature in one of those rooms or we might bend the architecture to go around a tree or a rock. So that was kind of like an idea that I think I got really passionate about and it just found itself propping up all over the work that I'm doing. So it wasn't even thinking so much about it, it just kind of happened.
Speaker 3:And then, as of lately I mean, the other thing too is that I have this many kind of varied interests all the time and I just pursue them. You know, like if there's a topic and an idea that I'm interested in, I would just go for it full force. You know, the latest idea that I'm kind of interested in is tourism. The latest idea that I'm kind of interested in is tourism. You know, I got a project to design a residency and kind of hotel cultural center in Bali, in Indonesia, and it's kind of a dream project because the clients were really open to exploring. It wasn't just about okay, we're going to build a hotel and we want to make the most profit as possible. They were genuinely interested in doing something different. You know, we connected very well and at some point I became a partner in the project.
Speaker 3:After a while, we started to genuinely look into the idea of how can we really question tourism. It's a kind of a very messy industry, but it's it's, it's. There's something about traveling that is wholesome. It's a thing that you need to go out and explore the world and to discover yourself and to discover the rest of the world. But it's not the cleanest industry. It has colonial legacies and it's just fraught with inequalities and many different levels.
Speaker 3:And so if we were going to go into it, the question is, how do we do this on our own terms? How do we address all the inequities, all the negative sides of it, right? And so we went into it like students, like very humble, that we didn't know anything about it. And so what we did? We started a lecture series where we brought in people, professionals, experts, futurists, architects, artists, thinkers, to talk about it, and it became as much as an intellectual exploration, as much as a development project within itself. I mean, I've learned so much just doing it.
Speaker 3:And so the way we started was that we I mean the clients they run residencies, that's what they do. And so I mean the clients they run residencies, that's what they do. And so I mean, basically, we pull all our strengths together as a way to kind of attack the problem. We started the first one last year where we take on a particular topic. So you know, the first residency was just, like it's called, urgent situation, trying to fix the problem of tourism, and then we're looking at BRICS this year. So we have these different residencies where we focus around these different things. But in some ways it was kind of like an education, a school in a way to kind of, you know, make yourself a student of the thing that you are going into and developing. So yeah, it was quite fun.
Speaker 4:You highlight in the philosophy of your firm, developing a sense of place. What do you mean by a sense of place? How does your lived experience, considering that you have moved from Jamaica to New York, to Norway and then recently you've also, like I said, had many collaborations where you traveled to Bali and I know you have made many connections with designers on the African continent and different places? So how does your lived experience as a Black designer I hope you identify as a Black or African designer affect your approach to design?
Speaker 3:So, yeah, I could wrap that into yeah, because they're all connected. So, yeah, I could wrap that into, yeah, because they're all connected. So sense of place kind of goes back to what I was talking about, you know, trying to look at nature in the work. And I think, you know, sense of place means really identifying and connecting with the context. You know, like, with every, every architectural um project, you know, you, you get a program. And for those of you are not architects, a program is just, you know, the plan for, for the room. You know, if you have a house, you're going to have a bedroom, a bathroom, kitchen, living room, etc. All right. And you, you tend to develop the program in a way what, what are the practical needs and functions of the home? If you're designing a house and then you're looking at the site itself, right, and the site has its own characteristics, its own sensibilities. And developing a sense of place is the question of how do you meet these two things together in such a way that you bring forth the sense of place. And for me it has become even more acute because I'm designing in such diverse, you know, diametrically opposed geographic regions, right, I mean in in the far North, you know, you know like Arctic circle region in in in, on one end, and then in Bali, which is like just South of the equator, right, and they couldn't be further from each other. Of course, you can talk about the practical consideration.
Speaker 3:In Norway, it's the focus on I learned this term, kalbrualbru, which means literally transmitted. Translated, it means coal bridge. It's like you don't want, like the cardinal ceiling in in in Norwegian, architectural design is to is to let the, the air, the coal air, come in. It's like you have to have really thick walls and insulations and that's a big focus, right, but I mean, you could go on and on forever, but, but, but what I'm thinking about in terms of sense of place in norway's in in norway, let's compare norway to bali.
Speaker 3:Like in norway, it's, it's a different sensibility of the place, right? Um, I'm talking about the sun. Like in norway, you know we have the sun coming in at from sideways. You know you could be sitting eating dinner and then suddenly you're like whoa, there's like a sunlight underneath the dining table and norwegians listening to this will know exactly what I'm talking about. Um, and you know, if you're in the far north, you know if you're in Russia, you know the Arctic, you know Siberia, alaska, canada, you'll know what I'm talking about. And the rest of the world.
Speaker 3:You're like, what is he talking about? Sunlight on the dining table right, but it comes from sideways and there is a different light. There's these extremes in terms of night and day. You have long summer days and dark, dark winter nights. You have different types of snows and the vegetation is, and so how do you meet all of these things, right, and how do you invite them into the building and how do you get the user of that space to experience the kind of those wonders, right? And then in in in bali, you know the sun comes from above, um, it's humid.
Speaker 3:Um, you design in a different way. You know like and I'm still learning that, um, because it's, it's funny like I, I, I, I decided that I want to be an architect in Jamaica and in those kind of climate condition, and then moving to New York and learning about architecture that way, and you're like, you're thinking about insulation and all these kind of things. So, in a way, going to Bali and designing there was, in a way, kind of a coming home, because it's designing in a context and a kind of a similar climate that I'm used to, right, but it's different because even in Bali, in Jamaica, it is different. In Bali it's a lot more humid Sense of place, doesn't have to do just about the geographic or geological differences. It also has to do with the cultural differences and in Bali it's a very spiritual place. It's a country that they have two main religions, hindu and Islam, but you go on to that place. It's a very spiritual place and the question is, how do you meet that in the architecture? And just to dive into that and to understand the spiritual practices of the people? And you can't just ignore that. You can't just put a building on the ground and just go okay, I'm a Western architect, I'm going to design a building, and this is a continual kind of education because it's, I mean, for me it's just fascinating because you know, I've been designing in Bali now since 2018. Now, since 2018, and the designs that I made in 2018 and what I make now is very different, because now I understand I've kind of in some way internalized the culture a lot more. I've been going there almost every year and I've internalized the culture a lot more and you develop a kind of respect for it and I think that is what sense of place is about is meeting and respecting the land, the culture and everything about that place.
Speaker 3:The second question, being a Black architect in Norway, in a lot of ways it's strange because I was thinking about how these different cultures meet me as a designer I mean, I wasn't an architect in Jamaica, but as a Black designer, and I think in Norway it comes back kind of to this question about Norwegians we see ourselves as kind of on the edge, looking in, and for me, I think a lot of people see me as American, more so than Black, and I'm met as an American and it was like oh okay, you're from, we're not so much American, but a New Yorker, and there is this kind of like oh, he's from New York, then he must have good ideas or, you know, there's a kind of a sophistication coming from you.
Speaker 3:I was also thinking about the question about what kind of advice do you give to Black designers, architects, you know, coming up in Norway, or just in general, is that look inward and find your own truth and and speak out?
Speaker 3:Um, because I I tend to, like, my natural position is I'm I'm more of an introvert and, um, I tend to be more reserved and I hold back my opinion sometimes and what I, what I do realize is that in in a in a design and work environment, it's extremely important being from outside let's say, outside of Norway, having a different culture to say, to speak up and let your voice be heard, because Norway is such a kind of uh, it's such a monolithic environment that it's a monolithic culture. Like everybody has the same kind of cultural ideas and they have very similar upbringing. And you, coming in from outside of Norway, you have like a different background and that's your superpower. And if you hold that back, you're holding back your organization or your school or yourself, because that's the value that you bring and be proud of being different and be bold about that, and it's not a recipe for a nice, peaceful and happy life?
Speaker 3:Perhaps the opposite, but I guarantee you that it will hasten your path to finding your own truth, because, yeah, you're going to say things that are like totally weird, and it highlights the difference between you and that culture.
Speaker 4:Are there any elements or principles from Jamaica generally, when it comes to both placemaking and construction and architecture as a discipline, that you feel you always lean into? That you feel you always lean into yeah, this could make this space better. Or these are principles that I can actually apply wherever, because they probably apply to us as humans?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was thinking about this also in relation to the idea of the African aesthetic, because I think what I notice in Jamaica, I notice in the images that I see coming out of Africa, is quite similar to what I see in Jamaica. When I was little, growing up in Nantaville, I was privileged to get these toy cars or these action figures. I see these kids, they make their own toys. They make their own toys, right. They took a milk carton and they took the caps of bottles and they put a wire together and then you have a wheel and a string and then suddenly they're walking around having loads of fun with this box and this ready-made, this put-together toy, right. And we had action figure where they took things from the bread and it's heaps of fun. And I'm like you know, lego has nothing on top of them. You know, like you know, the world is your resource right and you just put things together from anything that you have. So it's speaking to a kind of unbridled creativity, like just massive amount of resourcefulness. I think that's the red thread that I see both in Africa and in Jamaica. I don't think Africa or Jamaica has a monopoly on resourcefulness and on bridal creativity, but I think those are defining characteristics, and I think it's defining characteristics of the African aesthetic. And when I think of the African aesthetic, I think about the modern buildings that we're living in, because I mean, it is the African aesthetic, this functionalism, and I see that in the African mask, you see it all over Africa.
Speaker 3:These kind of you just take what you have and you put it together and you know there's, there's a lot of knowledge, like with you know, just thinking about the traditional techniques, that that that exist and if we don't preserve it and we don't document them, they're going to be lost. Like this is what I also experienced in bali is that you know the pattern is that there are traditional techniques that are sustainable. That was much better before colonization and and and basically what happened is you find a more convenient technique right, you could go to the river and collect mud and process it and put in, you know, coconut husks to make what is it? Rebars, right, it takes a longer time. Or you could just go to the store and get some cement and put it together and because of that convenience, you select the far inferior solution for the planet, for your local community.
Speaker 4:I mean, if we grow up, if we are in architecture school, we are the center, so everything rotates around us. I think, once in a while, when people or technologies that de-center us come in, it plays with our minds and it's easier to say no, that is not true, no, that is not authentic or no, that cannot stand, rather than saying oh, what, I've never heard of that. How does it work? Help me understand. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But that's well said. You know, like what I'm designing right now in Bali, and it has. I was thinking this is basically the African aesthetic. It's a stone base, it's glued together with mortar that is from clay. I mentioned to you Bartanga.
Speaker 3:Bartanga is a resident from Zambia who came and she taught us how to use clay mortar, using traditional African techniques, to hold a wall together. You know, when she was showing them how to make mortar from clay, you know, some of the old elders were like, yeah, I remembered my grandfather teaching us something like that, but we don't know how to do it anymore. You know, that's a super case in point, you know, and then we're going to use batch, which is common both in Bali and in Africa, right? So, but it's put together in a very modern way and hopefully, when this building falls apart, it will just dissolve right back into nature and no one would know that it even existed. And so it's talking about. It's so forward thinking in terms of not just creating a form but in terms of sustainability, right. All of that is kind of coming full circle. So it's it's um for that. That, for me, is the african aesthetic wow, what a nice way to sum it up?
Speaker 4:yeah, and it's been. It's been really, really incredible talking to you don't know, and listening to your thoughts and your experience and you know all the knowledge that you bring, but also just having this conversation and helping us unpack the African aesthetic.
Speaker 3:I'm like super over the moon over what you're doing. I mean it couldn't be the time for it couldn't be better, and the importance of it is it's just one can speak volumes about it, but I mean it's what the world needs now.
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