My African Aesthetic
This podcast is part of My African Aesthetic; a platform that centers research on African Aesthetics, African Design Philosophy, and African Placemaking in African and African diaspora communities. Our goal is to contribute to the body/canon of knowledge on African aesthetics through research, documentation and education. By interrogating ways and levels of engagement in placemaking; we intend to bring to attention to the central and important roles Africans themselves have and have had in creating sustainable neighborhoods and communities. We encourage dialogue and collaboration to ensure an inclusive, human centered and authentic shared learning platform.
https://www.myafricanaesthetic.com/
My African Aesthetic
4.2. Jomo Tariku - Artist/Industrial designer/Data Scientist- Ethiopia/USA
Jomo Tariku is an Ethiopian American Industrial designer, artist and data scientist. He was born in Kenya, raised in Ethiopia and currently lives and has his design practice in the USA. Jomo's work and research has been covered by many publications such as Architectural Digest, de zeen, Vogue, The Design Edit etc. His work is currently in the collection of major museums in the USA and some of his beautiful pieces were featured in the set for Marvel's Black Panther, Wakanda Forever movie.
He is one of the founding members of BADG (Black artists + Design Guild)- "a member-driven platform for creative professionals seeking community, collaboration, and creative support.” On this episode; Jomo shares his personal and career journey, his struggles and achievements on this journey and his hopes and dreams for the future of black designers in Africa and the diaspora.
Instagram: @jomotariku
Website: https://www.jomofurniture.com/
Instagram: @myafricanaesthetic
Website: https://www.myafricanaesthetic.com/
Welcome to my African Aesthetic, a podcast that interrogates the African aesthetic in African architecture and design.
Speaker 1:On this podcast, you'll hear about the work, philosophy and design process of African architects and designers practicing in Africa and the diaspora.
Speaker 2:My name is Eunice Nanzala-Shumaker. I'm a Ugandan architect and designer living and working in Norway.
Speaker 1:And my name is Penina Achayu-Laker. I am a Ugandan graphic designer, researcher and educator living and practicing in the USA.
Speaker 2:Our podcast features conversations with designers working to provide architecture and design solutions for Africa.
Speaker 1:We would like this to become a platform where our guests share their knowledge and experiences on designing in the diverse, hybrid and dynamic socioeconomic, cultural and political African context.
Speaker 2:We are looking forward to embarking on this journey with you. Welcome to the my African Aesthetic podcast, season 4, episode 2. Our guest today is industrial designer Jomo Tarikou. He was born in Kenya, raised in Ethiopia and currently lives and has his design practice in the USA. His inspiration comes from the African continent. Jomo's work and research has been covered by many publications. His work is currently in the collection of major museums and some of Jomo's pieces were featured in the set for Marvel's Black Panther Wakanda Forever movie. Well, here is another reason to re-watch Wakanda Forever.
Speaker 2:Jomo is passionate about advocacy for black and African creatives and designers. He is a data scientist, a researcher, an author and a mentor to young black and African designers. He is one of the founding members of BADG Black Artists and Design Guild, a member-driven platform for creative professionals seeking community collaboration and creative support. We will start off this episode with a quote that Jomo usually shares in his talks, interviews and presentations. As a designer, I have come to terms with the fact that what and who design history has been interested in canonizing up to this point does not reflect me, my cultures, my values and many of the tenants that make me a citizen, a designer and a teacher. I don't see myself reflected in much of the narrative of design, not in the history, the theory, the practitioners or the outcomes, professor Ramon, yes, so I mean, he said it so well, I had to steal that.
Speaker 3:It was good. I can't even add one dime to that. It is so good. I've put it on a slide. I've used it in a few presentations, as you said, because it encapsulates my struggle as a designer and what I've seen in the industry. So yeah, perfectly said.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much for saying yes.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank you. Of course, saying no would defeat what you just read, oh my goodness, yes.
Speaker 1:So I guess I'll kind of get us started here and, just like that quote, at some point in the podcast, we'll find our way into talking about how we can subvert those perceptions of the African aesthetic and context and how, as African makers, designers and creators who aspire to tell our own stories, we can talk about the things that we're doing on small ways to sort of change those narratives. So we'll circle back there, but what we want to do we're all these Africans in a very interesting way. I think that three of us capture a good part of East Africa today, and so it's especially exciting for us to have this.
Speaker 3:All right, we're ruled today.
Speaker 1:There's an East Africa connection here, but maybe, if you wouldn't mind, we just want to take you back just a little bit back to you, bringing your from Ethiopia, but by way of Kenya, which in itself is also quite interesting, but also not very uncommon, given a lot of our migration histories in East Africa. So could you just talk a little bit about what growing up was like for you? Are there very specific memories, sight, sounds, people that come to mind when you just think about what growing up was like for you?
Speaker 3:Oh, I want to take you slightly back. So the connection and the reason my father named me Jomo is because my dad, during the Italian invasion of Ethiopia, was a refugee in Kenya. So and he grew up as an orphan after the war. But the first time he got to learn to read and write was in Kenya in a refugee camp. So after he returned to Ethiopia, was into the military, becomes a civil servant, rises through the rank and ends up being appointed again as a military attache to East Africa. So that's Kenya, tanzania and Uganda, based out of Nairobi and that's where I was born, in Kenya. So it was as a sign of gratitude on how much he's gone through and just the surprising fact of life where he was an orphan in a refugee camp and now he get to have presence in front of world leaders, including Jomo Kenyatta and the emperor back in Ethiopia, alessia Lassi. So for him is just an acknowledgement the role of what Kenya meant to him. So that's why I was named after Jomo Kenyatta.
Speaker 1:So now my younger brothers are. They're in the presence of presidents. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I jokingly say hey, it's not only I'm called Jomo, my christening name is Alessia Lassi. So I say be careful, I got both covered.
Speaker 1:Both yes.
Speaker 3:Anyway. So that's the connection with Kenya. I mean, we went back to Ethiopia when I was four, so I barely have any memories, but we're fortunate enough. My mom worked at Ethiopia Airlines, so we did travel to Kenya a few times Kenya, zambia, congo as a kid and Ethiopia was going through a very tumultuous time. So for me to have that opportunity that most of my classmates even though I went to a private Catholic school in Addis, even for us within that circle getting that kind of opportunity, was unique at that time Because we did have relatives, good family, friends who were hosting us during summer, so that ended up being our summer vacation, not every year, but every other pretty much.
Speaker 3:We traveled and we got to enjoy and see things. Museums We've been to Nairobi Museum many times, actually, including the Snake Park right there. That was the unique part for me. But anyway, what this travel also showed me was the different cultural approaches, even though back then it didn't click in my head what I was seeing. But I think it made me recognize why my dad was passionate about, you know, collecting all these things from all of his travels, and I've always said our home was extremely eclectic because he brought so many things and the living room was his staging area. By no means he's no artist. I didn't get my art skills from him, probably from my mom's side, because I do have an architect uncle. My oldest brother also used to like to draw.
Speaker 3:Drawing, unlike most homes, was never discouraged in our home as long as you took care of school. You know, no one said to me stop drawing or we won't buy you paid supplies or anything. So you know I was never discouraged, unlike other people that I've heard who ended up becoming artists or designers or architects. You know why can't you be a lawyer? A doctor is the common thing we keep hearing. So but you know, as a kid I saw those things. Those were the things that I put down on my sketch pads.
Speaker 3:I was more growing into drawing things than people. Maybe I was a good at it, I don't know. You know it just never occurred to me. Ethiopia was going through multiple wars, through different fronts, so seeing, you know, tanks and jets and things and propaganda on TV was very common. So those were also the things that I drew aircrafts and tanks, I guess as a young boy, you know at the age of 10, what else could you draw? She keeps seeing these things. But later on in year, you know, my father and I guess in his foresight, also put us in a very small, me and my younger brother, who was also born in Kenya but not named by a Kenyan name these quite different names.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we were only a year apart, a year and two months apart. So we were in the same grade, and my dad also put us in what you'd consider an apprenticeship program, right in our neighborhood, maybe with a five minute walk and a very small shop where we spend our summer breaks two summer breaks there and I think all of these added up to where I am now Now. Back then, did I know all of this would end up being a career that I would pursue? Absolutely not. It was something to do out of boredom, but I enjoyed it. So it's not like I didn't enjoy it or somebody forced me into it, even when my dad took us to the small shop because he was extremely strict. Anything to escape the, you know the home confinement during summer break was great for us.
Speaker 3:So in the person who owned that shop was also an artist and he painted, so whenever he got a chance, he also showed us how to do water painting. We didn't have oil, but all of these things we did during summer break. So, yeah, I think a compilation of all this is what makes me now.
Speaker 1:That's really interesting, and I'm so happy to hear that you are in a household that really encouraged, like you said. It encouraged you to to draw and be creative, as long as you are keeping up with all the other academic requirements and and, and, as I think this idea of your home, your household, being an environment that simulated your thinking through the eclectic artifacts that were created, there was so much learning that was happening. I am curious, though, at what point, if you remember there being a conversation about can this be a viable career pathway for you, and is that a conversation that was had, or did you continue pursuing other things while, over the summer, also honing these creative skills of making, and does that make sense?
Speaker 3:Again going back to that simultaneous time in Ethiopia where parents were trying their best for for their kids not to end up in the in the military, because it was the civil war was getting really bad and kids were being recruited big time right out. So it reached a stage where they wouldn't even wait to get you into military service after college. So it was right after high school and you know my parents were more, I think, more concerned about that happening to us. And then, you know, or you have to be a doctor. The goal was can we get these kids out and make them attend college? That was the ultimate goal. There was no sit down conversation. We had saying so what are you going to study?
Speaker 3:I just don't remember that Now I'm into the US because my oldest brother or had already done computer science and we're going to the same college. You know, I thought maybe I should dabble into that, but I think within two semesters I found out that was not where my passion was. Lucky for me, I was. I was taking electives. That small Christian college only had art as an elective. So you know, I had to take an elective. So I wanted to do art, but the professor was running that program.
Speaker 3:So I did oil painting one I forgot, but two or three drawing and painting classes and she kept on coming to me and saying if you're this good, what are you doing in school? Why don't you? You seem to enjoy it. It seemed to be doing well. Until then, actually, I've never done oil painting. So for me it was just fun to be doing that and I started doing portraits of friends and Ethiopians within the small community we had in Kansas, just to make some extra income. So it was something I was like maybe this could be a profession. So we went me and my oldest brother went to the University of Kansas just to during the summer break to see who we could talk to within the Art and Design Program and because it was summer break, there was absolutely no one when you hit the teacher section of the building, but one office was open and we walked in and said can we talk to you?
Speaker 3:And I said, yeah, come on in His name is he's passed away now Professor Richard Branham, and he was the head of the Industrial Design Program at the University of Kansas. So he explained to me look, industrial design is pretty much product design. This is what we do. There's these factors to consider. If you like to draw objects and so on, I said, oh, objects, I never liked drawing people anyway. Yeah, this is interesting. This is back 88 maybe. So he photocopied there's no internet back there. So he photocopied from his book what industrial design meant, like a five page thing and said read this and see if it is something you wanna consider. I went home and read it and I said this is what I wanna do. This is I have suddenly discovered a career I have never heard of in my life called industrial design. In this. That's how I ended up, yeah, at KU, and then we can talk about the next chapter of doing my thesis, I guess.
Speaker 1:That's really great, and I love also the full circle because it ties back to your interests drawing, like you said, what you're seeing on TV and tanks and being started with optics and artifacts and yeah, you are, though industrial design is that really great sort of merger of those worlds where you can still draw and make, but you're now thinking about the products and creating them. It's industrial design is a pretty interesting and phenomenal.
Speaker 2:You did your research in African furniture and I'm thinking, since you've brought us up to when you went into design. Then, when you started, you mentioned that there was not so many role models, there are not so many people who looked like you in the curriculum. I think it's a beautiful story leading up to getting into college and having this professor, for example, this teacher who passed away, who was open and explained everything to you, and it was actually, in a way, easy to get this information. But then I think I would like to hear more about when you got into design school, your expectations, your experience, but also what did you get out of it? That kind of launched you into design itself, into your own practice, into practicing furniture design. How did you transition from design school, your experiences there and how you are now, and your practice?
Speaker 3:Very good question, because this has been now a 30 year journey. So since I left school in 93, it's 2023 now, and back in 92 or when I was getting ready to start thinking about, well, next year's thesis, what am I gonna do? One thing I clearly noticed while in college I spent a ridiculous amount of time in the Art and Design Library, especially between classes, and the library is so far away from our main building, the Art and Design Building. So if I had lectured the other one and I have an hour in between or so I would just spend most of the time going through books. And one thing I consistently noticed and those, the magazines they had there when it comes to art, architecture and design, were things I've never seen growing up. So I would just take a stack of these things. There were three or four of them were in Italian, to be honest with you, so it's not like I could read it, so I was looking more at the pictures. But you know, I've done this maybe three years in a row. I would go through the books, so I would go through magazines, and I consistently noticed that the aesthetics of African or black culture was never there, and if and when it appears, is the stereotypical European definition of those you know. Or maybe animal print on a either for team style chair or something. Again, I always want to profess saying I have nothing against those. You know, creativity is creativity.
Speaker 3:But when you try to put a whole continent in a box, that's one thing. When I, you know, have an issue. Or if you think we can only do masks, or we can only do tente clothes, we can only do found object art, I have issues. We are. It's a continent with 54 countries, billion plus people, so many diverse culture, landscape, I mean you name it. So we can't be defined by a few of these things. So you know my approach as an industrial designer who has always had passion about furniture, which my father also was into, you know. So I said, can I solve this problem? I do see, at least we have the wall art part covered. We have great artists and designers who've done great things with painting, sculptures, fabric.
Speaker 3:But can somebody actually go out and buy a full set of complimentary furniture that is based on diverse African themes? And you know, back then I had no documentation to show that, so I'm not saying it didn't exist. I mean I grew up with stools and chairs that were made in Ethiopia. There were three-legged stools that are very popular. We call it Bertrand Oluca, you know. So it's not like they didn't exist. But can I buy a full set that complements a living room, an office space, a bedroom? So even the one where I did my apprenticeship, the owner would have back in back days, the diplomatic community had these catalogs where they could buy beauty-free items and you would keep those. There was a huge company out of Europe that would publish these things and he didn't research his own indigenous culture, but he would check out the European. That's how much influence it had to be sophisticated meant getting very Eurocentric products. So and this is true, not with him only, it was true with my dad also, my, you know, our living room, our dining room set, the whole thing was Norwegian furniture. So that's what people thought of what sophisticated design meant. It meant outside the realm of Africa, especially outside of the realm of Sub-Saharan Africa. You know, then, you have to call, while we do, ethnic furniture. You know, it's things like that.
Speaker 3:So, again, going back to my thesis, my approach was okay. My problem statement is pretty much what I just told you. We have this problem. How do I go about solving it and how do I create something new? I could easily look at those three-legged stools that are in Ethiopia and, just you know, build them with modern equipment and materials and call it a day. Or can we actually go deeper? Could this be a very intricate study into what my sources for redesign could be? And do they have to be another furniture piece that is found within the continent of Africa that I just bring to this century and call it a day? Or could it be I look at, like I do these days, I look at a headrest and say that could be a good inspiration for a furniture piece. So that's the way I approach it.
Speaker 3:I mean my thesis, all my thesis work, were based on the axiomobulist, for example. It's not a furniture, you know, it's an architectural structure. So my goal was expand outside of, look at somebody else's furniture, unpack it, repack it and say they have done something new. And the other thing I was even Kinnliya where, back then, was the idea of giving credit where these inspirations come, because I wanted to make a historical connection for myself and for the people that are seeing it, so that can't always be there telling you the inspiration or the story behind it. So I made sure I always name my work after the things that inspired me and that helps everybody. That helps for Africans who are from the continent but didn't know about these things, and everybody who's looking at it or consuming it. So I've stuck by that and it's been a fantastic conversation maker. It's the best way to tell your story, also while you're there or not there.
Speaker 2:So what I love about the way you approach your work, it kind of scratches the surface into these different objects that you get inspiration from, because even just like look at, just like the comb, like the chair that's inspired by the comb and how it's an everyday object.
Speaker 2:It's an object that we've carried with us as Africans in all the diasporas that we live in. Yes, it's an everyday object, so it has a lot to do with our everyday life, but also to, I feel like you get it and you make it so grand in a chair because then it's not this light hair picking object, it becomes this object that is an exhibition, but then it has so many associations. So it's like a back and forth of how you can analyze the chair as an object, but I feel like it helps unpack so many layers of an object that is core in African aesthetics but generally in African everyday living. I would like to just say that there's been many conversations around about broadening the canon of conversations in design practice and design education, and you have told us about your experience in when you wrote your thesis, which is maybe about 1992.
Speaker 2:That's a long time ago 1992, 93, yeah, yeah, it's about a long time ago for some people, but I wonder how has this changed?
Speaker 3:That has changed, obviously. I mean you practiced 30 years in any step forward. You would take it now, 30 years ago. If you had asked me hey, jomo, do you think to make a career it would have taken you this long? I would have said absolutely not. My plan when I left college is five years. That is maybe youth optimism. Also, during the thesis presentation, and one juror who was giving us a right to have a beer after the presentation pretty much said hey, yours was the best. You should have your career set. You're in good position. That was a fantastic thesis presentation. So maybe I was extremely optimistic about where I would be headed, but life just get in the way.
Speaker 3:There were a lot of struggles in between. I mean, the things would not never fit in this podcast, but it did take time. Half of the struggle was getting attention to my style of design, my way of thinking, which other African designers in the diaspora as well as within Africa were attempting also. So this, you could say, was a group effort and only a few of us were making small, small headways Come 2018 or 2017 when we established the and I'm trying to condense this whole thing for you Once we established the Black Artist in Designers Guild. Then Malini Barnett, the founder, reached out to a few of us where an event happened in New York I think I forgot the title, but that some do is the future of design or something like that and out of the 100 or so guests and hosts that were invited, there were no Black designers, and this you can imagine.
Speaker 3:This is 20, I hope I'm not getting the wrong 2018 or 2017. So she did make a huge statement about this on Instagram. So now we have Instagram versus 1993 about. This is not acceptable in this day and age. This is New York. After all, we're having an event in New York. It's not some small town somewhere in the middle of the US. It's the capital of design for America. I guess the goal, and not even finding and inviting, was not right. And this event was sponsored by many well-known magazines that you know about that we see them on bookstores and so on. So the same types I was looking at when I was in college and where I was saying where is my way of thinking in?
Speaker 3:here, so that led to. That led to us saying you know, we need to do something about it. And we've seen progress, since One area we worked on is making sure we get published that more black designers work are seen, more events happen, we organized our own events Instead of waiting for somebody to acknowledge us. We said you know what we need to change this. So, with all the social media channels that we have, we capitalized on things like this. So, yes, there have been change that I've seen in the last five years, at least for me. So I can only reference this relative to my own career. What I've accomplished in the last five years outshines everything added before that. When it comes to, you know, jump in career to a point that you know I've left my day job at the World Bank to do this full client.
Speaker 3:And in doing very well the last two years, you know, getting into museums, going to finally, after 30 years of struggle, finally being represented by a gallery, which was not possible for me for some odd reason which I still can't fathom to get into a gallery Because I thought I'd put in the sweat equity that was needed. I created unique things. I brought unique discussions. I was highlighting things that were missing from the marketplace, but that was not good enough. So these were things that I that made me look at you know the data and trying to see what's going on here. This and I would go to shows, including when I went to Milan. There was only a few black people there forget black designers, but black people walking around the halls of you know the Saloni or the whole place, and I noticed that we were lacking in not being visible. So you know, I said how many designers are being licensed, for example, black designers being licensed by major manufacturers. So my study showed 0.3% or 0.33%.
Speaker 3:There are other studies done by other people, for example, museum collections. Have you know? One study from maybe four years ago showed 1%, and a new study shows 3% of major museum collections in the US are from black artists. I mean, that's, that number is shocking to me.
Speaker 3:So you know if you're not seen, if you're not part of the canon, so the canon is set by. You know what galleries do, what publications do, what museums. That is our house of record. The museum is what is going to be left when this generation passes away. So if you're not considered good enough to be part of a museum collection, it's like you never existed. So this push towards changing this canon is extremely important because it will filter down If and the other issue I've always struggled with is the US goes through this weird thing where and I think it's probably true in Europe every five to 10 years that would be a major African show or a major black art show, and then nothing happens. So, yes, it will happen in a major museum, you know. But after that, after the catalog is published, then is dead silence and back to things being normal.
Speaker 3:From a different perspective, so that the goal is more than just you know, being published and so on. It has to be multi-pronged. Now I think organizations like the Guild are. We are consistently advocating monitoring, checking, dialoguing, these things like what you're doing, and the reason I can't say no when you approach me is we're trying to change this thing, and if we don't do it in our lifetime, then the next generation is going to struggle.
Speaker 3:But definitely one area that I see could change in is like generations before me in the US have paid the sacrifice for doors to open for me. Yes, I can say mine took 30 years, but you can imagine designers before me were either never they probably never reached my status. Okay, even if they did, maybe they got recognized after they died and so it's been a long journey. So people like me also need to appreciate people who have paid sacrifice before me and put the how. I've opened the doors and I can build on it, and I'm hoping younger designers don't think these came easy. It came at the cost of many other black designers. I'll be honest with you. Me taking out the data and presenting that data about all these manufacturers can only create me enemies. It didn't open me door. Did any of them reach out to me?
Speaker 2:Zero.
Speaker 3:None of them reached out to me. They probably don't like that study. They don't talk about it. They don't mention it, Even when they say there is a problem that data never gets associated. Only journalists mentioned that data.
Speaker 3:So I know it rubs the wrong people. So there is sacrifice that most of us have put, so others doors open for others, and hopefully this is not forgotten. I hope I don't forget it and this is why, whenever I think, one of the questions is about also who influenced me, who do I give credit to, and so on. Are the craftspeople that have created all these amazing things in Africa that I base my work on?
Speaker 3:I am not in the mood to say oh, some fancy Western European influence me, do I like their work? I like their work. But the people who have not been given credit is where I give credit to, and the traditional art maker and craft maker who makes these things for utility is what has built most of us modern day designers career, and we need to give credit to those people, even though we don't know them by name.
Speaker 3:That's why you need to name the object and talk about the history about these two objects, so we can at least move this conversation forward, so it does not only become, hey, my name is now recognized. It's about only me and only me. Wow.
Speaker 2:So many. I like that. You help us compress a lot of information as you speak and you're a storyteller. We can tell Really.
Speaker 3:My dad was a very good storyteller.
Speaker 2:We're seated at the fire and just enjoying ourselves. You mentioned the importance of data and research, because I think it's easier to have these conversations when we have facts or data to reference to, or else it's easy for people to make it, trivialize it and just complain or make it in motion. Why don't you?
Speaker 2:do the work, or there is something about facts there's something about data that opens your eyes, even if you don't want to accept it, it is right in front of you and I think it forces the people to think about it, because, in this case, african designers, black designers, to ask themselves what can I do about it? How can I solve this problem? It's one thing, like you said, presenting it, and I think what it does? It clears the air. It says, okay, this is the fact, and then it gives both parties those who are against or who are for the opportunity to react. And I think how you react tells everyone where you stand and how engaged and how passionate you are about the cause, and I think in this case, this gives young designers. I think it's important for us young designers to know what we're getting into. I think the worst thing is for someone to go around without knowing the facts.
Speaker 2:It's just a good foundation, I think. Thank you very much, ful, for sharing that story about even mentors and all these platforms that we have right now. The African aesthetic was born out of that need to tell the story and once in a while, I think, aren't there so many platforms like this. And then I look deep, deep, deep into it and I'm like no, I don't care how many they are, they will still need.
Speaker 2:I don't care how many designers African designers are being interviewed around the world, how many innovators African creatives are being. Some will find their inspiration here, and this way of telling the story is also necessary. I think I'll just throw this back to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah no, but as I think, eunice, it's something about the repetitive nature of hearing those names that you said very well, jomo. We're not really in our curricular setting, our history, or starting the history of art or design. Those names were excluded. So the more we're able to have these conversations and starts to put names, to not just work but also names to people, I can't tell you how many times now, when I think about my own design education, rather than only looking at the Baja switch, for when you study design in this Western context, that's where your foundation is. Now I'm looking within and saying how about our African designers who maybe were not named before, but now we're slowly hearing those names? Saki, mahfundikwa, mugendi. Those names are starting Estamahlangu. They're starting to be heard more. Not that they were not there, they were always there, but they were just never given.
Speaker 1:So I am okay for there to be repetition and for us to be having conversations and normalizing our ancestors, the people doing this work right now, and I'm so grateful for the work that you are doing with the Guild, marlene. I happened to do one of the co-editors of the Black Experience in Design and Marlene has a really beautiful piece there which talks about just the foundation which you got right 2018.
Speaker 3:Oh good, you can tell, even though I do data numbers. Oh no, you are right on, there's too much data, you have too much data.
Speaker 1:Let's give a bit with that and I don't know this might take us just a little bit, not off topic, but the more I'm hearing you talk and I'm thinking about us sitting here. We're all sort of in the diaspora context, having home in East Africa, but we've all had the opportunity to study practice in the Western context, looking back on our own heritage. But I'm trying to think about our fellow young and upcoming designers, artists, makers, back at home in East Africa, on the continent, and how they are navigating their own education, their own design or art education, and trying to pay attention to who they are reading, who they are seeing, how they wrestle with what is elevated as good design and how maybe African design is still seen as maybe craft or whatever like. How do we encourage, speak to them and what do we tell those young and upcoming Africans Well, setting their eyes to the Western, saying I'll know that I've made it when my work is maybe seen on that stage or maybe if my work has more of like a Eurocentric aesthetic.
Speaker 1:How do we remind them to embrace what we have at home, Because what we have at home is golden. And unfortunately, that's not always seen that way, but they're right now practicing and learning in the best place they could, back at home. So I don't know, what do you tell?
Speaker 3:them. Well said, I mean, it's so well said. We are sitting in a I say this to everyone that have reached out to me related to what's your advice? And look, I want every artist and designer to practice what they're passionate about. It does not have to be African. What you enjoy is what you should do. But all I can impose on you is look, when the time was right for my career to blossom, what is making me stand out from a crowd? I mean there are thousands of chairs, I mean millions of chair designs, thousands of designers that are practicing. Now it is not easy to bubble up to the top, so what is helping me make do that? It's my African heritage, because I based my work on that. Now I could have easily done a very Eurocentric furniture, but we will sell well too. If that is my goal, then fine, but my goal is this whole thing.
Speaker 3:We've been talking about Canon and making sure I know where your culture is preserved but is present in this day and age, with all the capabilities we have in production and so on. And why not look into that? Just look into it, and if you can make it work like this worked for me, and if you want to use mine as an example and other African designers or designers from the diaspora? Why not? It's like you said, it's the biggest asset we're sitting on that we're not appreciating, and this is so true. Whenever I get my architectural digest subscription or the core every few months, I would definitely see any European school sitting there and one of the photos you'll say was sitting right there. We have so many of them at home in my mom's. You know my dad has passed away, but at my mom's place now there's so many of these things sitting down. I'm glad I appreciated them enough to re-imagine them in a modern context, but they're looking at it as this, you know, the primitive object to put in a corner, and I'm not looking at it. That's utility in my house or in our house. It served a purpose, it had a story. So you know, look into this. This is the greatest wealth our ancestors left us and this is up to us, to you know, re-imagine it in this century and use it to build a career for ourselves, for the craftspeople that work under you, especially if you're in Africa, so you can and hopefully some of them get to be exported the way you wanna tell the narrative behind it and the way you wanna say it, instead of somebody else taking it and putting it in a different context. So you could be in control, if you can use these things.
Speaker 3:So you know, one area I struggled with when I go to Addis is you know, the most obvious thing is there's huge construction going on within the city and the architecture of Addis, for example, frustrates me. If and when we use our own, we don't approach the design in a very sophisticated way, it's just plastering it. So there is no deep thinking about a deep dive into what you're trying to do, or it is strictly building ugly, glass box, high rises that heat up and do not serve. If you go into those buildings because they're barely any AC, it is hot. So we don't even design. I know I'm sidetracking a little bit, but we're walking away from things that work within our community into being copycats, while we're sitting on the greatest wealth of your own history, if not with any tailpick, and expand outside of that and, you know, reintroduce things from other African countries.
Speaker 3:But you know, the indigenous design that people poured into utilitarian objects is right there for you. That's your library. You should use that. You know the same thing I was talking about going to a library and not seeing it. You're seeing it. Your library is the objects that you see in your house daily. So, be it the clay pots, the you know objects made out of animal horns, or the stools and the baskets and so on in the traditional dresses, those are things you can extract for design. We say design should be an exact copy of another building. It should always see if you can. You know, you've seen the work of Francis Carey, for example, on how he uses indigenous things to solve problems that are close by. That's how we should approach it, you know. Talk about who do you admire as a designer or an architect would be him, because he can elevate and work on things up here and he can address local issues by creating jobs locally and using resources locally.
Speaker 3:I mean, you can't be dead.
Speaker 2:Can't Also think what you're bringing us to there is like doing the work, because I feel like, okay, there is, for example, architect Adia.
Speaker 2:He's in this, he's documenting on Instagram, but also through documenting a lot of the traditional architecture, the building materials, the building practices, and I feel like, oh, where the information is coming. It's being thrown at us. Also our context, like you said. There is a lot to get from that. I think Fungi Dubé reminds us of that in the previous season that we had. She challenges us to look around and we will be surprised how much we can learn, but also how much we can innovate and create. We can easily see what's lacking, we can easily see how to elevate, we can easily see how to refine if we just get comfortable in our, in our Africanness, and look around and see where is the inspiration coming. It's from my neighbor, it's from the food stand, it's from the pot, like you said.
Speaker 2:But I think that the point of doing the work, I think our generation this is just a general thought we have to do the work. Like what you said, there is a generation before me and you that has made it possible for me to practice architecture and urban planning in Norway, for Penina to be a professor in St Louis and for you to be a furniture designer in the US. There are so many people that have done their work so that we can be where we are and the work is not yet done, but I feel like one of the biggest questions as a young African designer or a person in the design and creative space is what can I do? I have to do the work, so the question is what can I do? And I feel like we are afraid generally, as Africans, to ask ourselves that question, because you have to do the work and then make another pedestal for another person to stand on another platform, and I feel like Francis Kerr, adia Ye and even Tosin Oshina War and so many of these.
Speaker 2:We have a generation of architects and designers and creatives that are doing it, but I feel there are few. I don't think we should be blinded by the fact that they are recognized, and you too, I mean, jomo, that you are recognized and Wakanda and being in museums now and being part of collections, I think we shouldn't shy away from doing the work.
Speaker 2:We will discover our aesthetic, we will discover how do we refine these objects, how do we elevate them. So I just general thoughts about that. I think work must be done. We can't shy away from it.
Speaker 3:I mean documenting and keeping records is very important. Like you said, what David Ajay is doing on his Instagram and publications is excellent.
Speaker 3:We need to do the same when it comes to other things. He, as an architect, is focused towards architecture mostly, but all these other traditions we have cultural crafts and designs and art. I think art definitely has a good thing. But, for example, this last chair I did is called the Quanta chair. We're not even sure if that is. You know, it's like I said, I named things after things that inspired me this chair that I found in an African objects book. I was surprised it was from Ethiopia, growing in Ethiopia. I've never seen it. So it became an inspiration for me to do my next year. But all it said on the book was Rage chair. So Rage is an ethnic group in Ethiopia. We try to research and find out exactly what that chair is called within the Rage culture. We're still not sure if Quanta is the right one. We even reached out to the ethnographic studies in Ethiopia. I even sent people, we called, we emailed, no help.
Speaker 3:So yes, there is things we are struggling with within the Western society, but we also need to appreciate and share. I am sure the university in Ethiopia probably knows the exact name. But if you don't share that knowledge openly and you know serious for us to promote this thing in a positive way, you're going to struggle. So I had to reach out to relatives and to said you know, probably this is the name. So, unfortunately, you know, miami show where I was showing the chair for the first time. I had to name it something and we just went with the consensus because two people came back and said this is the name, but it's probably not the right. I have no clue. So there, you know, that's where documentation matters. It matters Me as an artist. You know this is the first time I'll be sharing with you, but we're getting ready for a show, probably next year, where we put contextual objects next to the things that have designed where I get to tell you the story.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Object that inspired me. So the focus does not only become the chair of design. So you would get the connection right right there. Get to tell the story on the wall where next to the object. So it becomes a more interactive, educational type of of a show than the regular design shows you're accustomed to where people bring, let's say they create new five things. They get to display it in a nice gallery. You walk around it. Hopefully you run into the designer at the opening and it's done. The next day you come.
Speaker 3:You don't have the context unless you're willing to Google Right, but I want you to see the context of what these objects are, the scales, the story behind it. So this is part of that documentation I've been talking about, but approaching it differently. It doesn't always have to be a book, catalog or a video. It could be an interactive show that tells you the story of the designer. But there's always, you know, this is the index of of that object that I created. These are the resources that and you're seeing it right in front of you Instead of trying to dig out you know what is on a shanty store. What does he mean by this? I'm hoping I'll put the authentic a shanty stool. Next to my version of the shanty stool.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:So yes, obviously, if you're a Ghanaian or use others, but for others it will be. Oh, this is, you know, the first time I saw an, a shanty stool, on display, because I've only I've only seen it in books. The first time I saw it, the scale surprised me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, for some reason in my head I've always thought it was big, tall and massive yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Because it felt like it and that's, I think, what I wanted it to be. So, but I'm hoping showing you these type of interactive things will clear up things for for other people. Like you know, I had to face it at some point and say, okay, this, this is definitely different than what I imagined in my head. So, you know, this is talking about documentation. I think we have to be creative as designers how we document our own work and how are we going to leave this.
Speaker 3:You know, again, I'm very mindful that, like most people, that I will be alive, or, you know, forever. So I'm very mindful about what kind of legacy I'm going to leave. Is it going to be just objects that I create and I said, okay, finally, things are working out. Okay, Thank God, I'm not here. Or is there more than that that you want to leave? Yeah, and you know I'm 54 right now. As you get older, you start thinking about these type of things and you know. You know, is it all about creating objects and the next show, or is there something you want to leave that actually will speak to generations to come?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you've said so much in just these last few minutes that resonated with me so much, because you're not only touching on this idea of us thinking about how to document and tell our stories, but you're also putting into question how we actually document and tell our stories and to not be afraid to push the boundaries of what documentation has looked like. And but also, how does the work that we create from our so new and diverse heritage fit into spaces like museums and galleries? Can we reimagine how we share this work and how, just by you bringing these two objects into context, you're not only creating an opportunity for knowledge sharing, but you're also creating an opportunity for new knowledge to be sparked. Because you talked about how, taking you back to your thesis, one of the things I loved about the questions you were asking. They were very critical in that you were asking questions about how do we take something that we know and think of it in a new way. How do we build upon the knowledge of the things that we've experienced in our own upbringing?
Speaker 1:I think, when I think back to my education in Uganda, nini said I have had these conversations about having studied in Uganda and then having studied in the West, and one of the things that is very, very different for those two experiences is in Uganda, a lot of our education was very passive oriented in that our role as students was to memorize and be the best at regurgitating on the test and saying this is what the teacher said. I'm going to be the best at repeating exactly what you said. That's how I'll get to me.
Speaker 1:And the transition from studying in Uganda to studying in the US. For me, one of the hardest things was I was being asked for my own opinion, like the teacher wanted to know what I what do you think about this thing? And I'm like, no, you tell me what to say and I'll tell you. I will tell you how, how I think about this thing after you've told me, and it was the hardest for me, it was the hardest shift because, unfortunately, our education, which we inherited through colonialism and through the British, it just stifled our creativity and we were never asked or encouraged to question things because it was seen as either being too stubborn and just not being respectful.
Speaker 1:But what is needed today, I think, among us are the other things, is for us as Africans, as people who are really, really trying to broaden this canon, to ask critical questions of the things that we create, to say, okay, what more about this kente cloth? What else about the comb that inspires the chair? Or the antelope home that inspired it? What more? Here now, like even after Jomo has done this work and brought these things into conversation, I hope, as people engage with these two things, what can emerge from that?
Speaker 2:Yes, beyond that.
Speaker 1:And I think, on the African context, we need to inspire our young people to ask those questions and to be given space to experiment, to tinker, to maybe even fail a bit, to build new knowledge from their own upbringing. Anyway, so that's where my mind, when I was hearing you talk about the plan you have for this exhibit, I was like, oh that's so great, thank you.
Speaker 3:But I agree with you. I mean I struggled when I was thinking growing one or two, where every two weeks would have the critic session, I just you get to stand up and talk about your own work. I couldn't talk about my own work. I couldn't. It was stage fright, plus this culture of you being told what to repeat or say or you memorize that thing. And now this is my own work and the professor is saying talk about your own work, what do you mean? So I mean it reached a point where one professor would actually say to me Joe, if you don't have to say anything, it's good, work is good. If you don't want to say anything, you don't have to. Back then I thought that was a good thing, but actually it was a bad thing.
Speaker 3:At some point I had to get over my old stage fright about talking not only about my work but just talking to. My mom says to me these days I don't recognize you. You used to be the most shyest person, let alone get on stage and have a conversation with other people. So yes, we need to get over our fright, we need to be experimental, we have to give the freedom to take, and I do understand certain religious objects could be out of reach because of what they mean to certain cultures. So, within respect, if it's done, most will let you experiment with those type of things within reason. But outside of that, yes, please redefine the objects I'm creating.
Speaker 3:I am hoping. I am hoping, while I'm alive and past it, others will take it, unpack it, repack it and create something new with it and say you know what this is, what it means to me, this is what I learned from it. They're there to be used and redefined like I've taken. Others credited them, and designers and artists well, mostly designers we are gonna really create something that no one has seen before. Chairs have been around, stools have been around. It's a matter of how far you can push that envelope. It's not about really creating completely something. So experimentation is needed to get to a newer level. So don't be afraid to question what others have done and see what you can do with that.
Speaker 2:Speaking about legacies, I mean it would be unfair to not talk about Wakanda.
Speaker 1:It would not even allowed, it would be like a nation.
Speaker 2:Wakanda forever, Black Panther and all the media around it. But wow, I am so proud.
Speaker 3:Thank you, even though you can barely see my work because the camera's moving.
Speaker 2:But the whole, speaking of African aesthetics, afrofuturism, african design in the international space, but also the local space, inspiration, role models, pushing the envelope. There are so many things that we can criticize about the whole concept of Black Panther and Wakanda People, can I mean, like we said, we shouldn't be afraid to ask what more could we have done, what could have been done, whichever way, but the energy around the whole Black Panther, the energy around Wakanda no one can deny it.
Speaker 2:Nugendi called it the Wakanda effect when he was trying to tell us that ours, as African designers, wasn't a problem of creativity, it was a problem of confidence.
Speaker 3:Confidence access.
Speaker 2:Access. Yeah, so I feel like the whole Wakanda concept and it coming out just the way it is. This is just a start. I can re-watch it and re-watch it, and every time they're elements the architecture, the design, the outfit, the hair, the fashion.
Speaker 2:The fashion, the way they speak, the representation that they are trying to bring to create this global African language like this piece and I feel like Africans have all generally presented as conflict gangs, blah, blah, blah. So I feel like, even if it's fictional, this is how our concepts of Hollywood, of the West have been formed, through film, through visual communication. And I have no problem with Wakanda being as fictional as possible If it sparks optimism, if it sparks inspiration if the young generation can see themselves proud, tall and confident.
Speaker 2:We need it. So how does it feel to be featured in Wakanda forever?
Speaker 3:To be part of this energy.
Speaker 3:It feels amazing. I mean, it was. Fascinating to me still is how did it even all happen? Because it was a simple email from one of the set decorators and they didn't even the first email didn't tell me what movie it is. It was a simple we wanna use your work for a movie set. So we're interested in these things. Three things so, and I've received emails like that before from either TV series or ad people were doing advertisements and, by the way, none of them ended up using my work. So the query has been happening. It's like okay, here comes another one, he's another one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I read it and I checked the domain and the domain didn't work or it pulled up a blank page. So I said, okay, I tried to research who. This is no clue. I go to dinner and I tell my wife and my kids upstairs got an email, another movie thing. And I checked the domain, the domain says MCU, something, something. And my oldest son says MCU stands for Marvel Cinematic Universe, and I said what I love it.
Speaker 3:So I just walked away from a Marvel email, no knowing who this is. So I go back and obviously I quickly do the MCU thing and I say this gotta be probably Black Panther. So I replied and the conversation continued. I worked with a wonderful designer who worked with me. We actually recently had a Washington Post interview together and I wasn't sure until recently if she was the source or Hannah Dickler, who is the Academy Award-winning designer of Black Panther was because I did run into her and she is the curator for the Met and for Future's Period Room.
Speaker 3:But we couldn't hold this conversation about the set design for the movie which was being made at the same moment, because I had signed an NDA and I'm in front of people. She's there so I couldn't ask her did you like the style or do you? It was just that photo op together and that was it. But it's because I've done so much. Out there, my name was out there. The set decorator did find my name. Each time she Googled away, my name pops up on anything African related.
Speaker 3:So this is one other area that I wanna encourage people to make sure you publish your work, you talk about your work, you share your work. I mean, this is a conversation I've always had with my younger brother, which was always weird of whenever I published my work previously. You say you're sure people are not gonna steal your work. This is too unique. You're just like hosting it as if it doesn't bother you. But if I hadn't shared that, by the way, malini from the Guild wouldn't have found me. I didn't know her bevious to that.
Speaker 3:It's because of these type of things that, yes, there is a risk, but willing to share on Instagram and showing my work is what give me connection with so many different people I would have never met. Publishing the data, for example, is what got me into the MoMA Design Store. Because somebody at MoMA saw the data and said we knew, we know it's bad, but we didn't know it was this bad. So that conversation turned into the design store carrying my work. So, going back to the movie, that's how we I mean the initial relationship there was. I was never there designing anything. They ordered 12 of my stools initially. Then they came back and rented my Niala chair and they also acquired the Mucacha stool. So they finally ended up using 14 of my designs in the movie. So, yes, you know, and I watched it with my kids and nephews at the movie and I think I didn't pay attention to the story much the first time because I didn't exactly know where they were being used.
Speaker 3:So you know I was pointing out to both my son and my nephew were sitting in both sides and I was like here's my stuff, we're watching the movie don't disturb us, dude Because for them, they grew up with these objects around them and this is something that now, at this age, that I'm trying to explain to them how important it is to our family, to what it means, to creating a unique IP that will have their last name and they're associated with it.
Speaker 3:Because, just like I did not appreciate that the Ethiopian stools were in our house I don't want to say appreciate, but you know, there were utility, utilitarian objects for me, and when I became a designer is when I actually had this immense appreciation. So this is something I'm trying to also share within my family. So the struggle we're talking about, about the youth, the young ones, people within the continent of Africa well, I'm struggling with it in my own home Because for them, this is for daddy. This thing comes easy. He just whips it out and he goes and does this and brings it. So this is a conversation that I'm having with my own sons to say, look, this is in a museum and this is a big deal, not only to daddy, but to you, because you'll be carrying my legacy forward, so you have to appreciate this.
Speaker 1:So, going back to that struggle we're having about moving forward, yeah, and there'll be a time, like you said, just like your memories, with your dad going to museums or looking at all the artifacts collected in your house.
Speaker 1:There comes a time when you really start to look back, reflect and that introspection will come to fruition and it's just a matter of time. But I'm very sure, like, if anything, they're on way, they're like, oh, the movie, like you know, they're there. You're planted very important seeds that will definitely grow in time and I guess we wish we had more time and hopefully, in the future, as more themes and important topics emerge, we would love to at some point continue this conversation, but for now, we're going to start wrapping up this really incredible conversation we've had with you and we'd like to wrap up the podcast with a question we asked Ola and guests. There isn't, you know, there isn't like one straight answer. We're just genuinely curious to hear what your thoughts are. But it's really about your African aesthetic. What we would love to know is you know, what does the African aesthetic mean to you, or what is the African aesthetic? If you think about it, what comes to mind?
Speaker 3:Very good question. This is, by the way, sometimes, you know, where I get confronted by people who ask me saying aren't you pushing it by using Africa? As you know, like we said when we started the conversation, is this a continent with 54 countries, thousand and thousands of ethnic languages, cultures, heritage and so on. And for me, you know, I don't see that being a conflict because I do go through when I do my research everybody is a potential topic. So for me, an African aesthetic means things from all the way from Senegal to the cost of Somalia and down south to South Africa, all the way to, you know, egypt and Libya, to media, even though I've rarely done the Saharan countries as a research yet. But that there's a plan is just that I've never gotten to that yet. So for me, you know, anything I can extract out of the continent of Africa and you said it, I mean I'm using wildlife. So, hey, if the wildlife, that specific wildlife, is roaming around Africa, it's a topic, it's an aesthetic. I can pick up the color, the fashion, the you know, you know scarifications in any patterns. When it comes to hair design you name it everything is a potential design element for me and that's how I really believe we can develop our. You know, jomo should have his own aesthetics, unis should have, panina should have. All three of us might also work on the same thing but have our own unique way of approaching it. And that's how most designers work anyway. You know, all these famous European designers that we celebrate are kind of similar to you know. Yes, they might have their own liking, that there are areas that they merge and there are areas that it could be where they fabricate. It could be the way they approach the design, it could be the material, it could be the color. So you know, the last thing we want to do is put this whole African design element in a box. It should be whatever that we can come up in the future and whatever we're documenting now in whatever has been in the past.
Speaker 3:And you know people who sometimes look at my work not knowing what the background is. You know, especially the naturally finished height adjustable stills. They say, oh, that looks like you know mid-century thing, or you might. You know, because you don't know the context, but for others who see it, you know, again, going back when Ghanaian seamashanti still they make, even though it is wildly different, but it still is enough context that I've left for you. You could easily pick that up. Same thing with the Burrati headrest. If you know that headrest, you'll automatically that thing looks like a headrest, you know.
Speaker 3:So it depends on each designer and this is my approach. My approach has always been, especially as of late, the silhouette on an object. What does it say to me? And from that I carry forward, because mine don't have a lot of carvings and details. They're simple lines and this is because the silhouette dictates what I end up coming up with. But everybody will have different approaches and the aesthetics you're going to get from that hopefully leaves enough detail that will make you say, oh, this looks like from the continent of Africa. At least the theme is derived from the continent of Africa, and I think if you see a whole series of my work, you'll get it automatically. If you see one object by itself, well, if it's the Afro hair picture, I think it's pretty obvious. Or the Shanti stool would be obvious. But once you see a series, you could easily lock in and say I see the Africanness in these objects.
Speaker 1:That's great. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you for your time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're so honored to have this conversation with you and to get to meet you, to hear more about your story, to relate with you, so we're very excited.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me, thank you for having this platform. We need more, but I'm glad both of you have set this up so people like me can share our story and interact with great hosts. So thank you.
Speaker 2:If you enjoyed listening to this episode, please join us for more conversations and interviews with African educators, creatives, architects, urban planners and designers, as they share their knowledge and experiences about practicing in Africa and the diaspora.
Speaker 1:Remember to subscribe, leave a review or share this podcast with other people that might be interested in this content. Thank you for joining us today.